Author Topic: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver  (Read 286 times)

Konrad

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Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
« on: 18 May 22, 03:36 pm »
So I think it's finally time for me to start my own thread, and share what I've come up with for a design, before I drift from deliberation, past pontificating, into procrastination.
I wanted to share the design I've come up with so far, as it's almost complete, to see if I've overlooked anything obvious, or done anything wrong. It still needs a little work, but most of what's left will depend on the actual items I buy, and how it fits me, after the rough mock-up is built, full-sizeÖ Have I designed a comfy kart, or a slightly rounded, overly complicated coffin, because I can't get back out again? Iíve just finished building a garden shed, to free up the space in the man-cave, so once thatís clear Iíll be making a mock-up out of 2x4 wooden beams, to confirm how accurate Iíve been while sitting in my office chair with a tape measure. Iím pretty sure the answer is going to be ďnot veryĒ, so some of the dimensions are going to have to change, but fingers crossed.
Those of you who I was lucky enough to meet in person at the inaugural CK meet may remember that I was planning on building a kart based on a very famous train from 1916, immortalised in a set of books in 1945Ö the LBSC E2 class, 060T.
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You might know it by a different name.
As you can see, I got a little way into that design before I realised it had a couple of slight problems for my intended use:
  • I wanted to use it to take my boys (currently 2 and 5) to school, but I wonder how quickly they are likely to grow up and fall out of love with the tales. Not so much an issue though, as it could be re-shelled, assuming I can build it fast enough for them to still like it when it's on the road.
  • The seating position puts both of them, and the engine, on or behind the rear axle. I suspect only certain on-lookers would see the comedy value of a kart doing a spontaneous stationary wheelie, as the weight of daddy getting out causes both boys to be ejected out the back, before it sets itself back down again. Again, not an insurmountable problem, but fixing this in the design meant it wasn't looking great, proportion-wise, and was starting to limit the driver space considerably.
  • In the event of an accident, their arms and heads are quite likely to become the roll cage. This is the real kicker, and only going to get worse, as both of them are mini giants.
Unsurprisingly the wife was less than happy with the prospect of that 3rd point, and said I should just make a single seater kart instead. Something along the lines of "knock yourself out" (or that's what I heard, at least) so onto plan BÖ some kind of classic racer. This was going to be the second build I did anyway, so just brought things forward a bit, but I wasn't yet fully decided on which car to pick as the inspiration. Rory Race Car, or LCC Rocket maybe? I've always been a fan of the shape of some of the earlier F1 cars.. classic cigar-type shape, so I hunted around for pics of my favourites. Stefan has since posted a few which caught my eye, like the 1933 Driscoll/Jamieson Austin, or an Appleton 1933 Special based on a Maserati. What I picked ended up being a sketch of a 1958 F1 style car, built to race in Italy, against American indy cars, by a company which is quite well-known for not liking anyone to replicate their cars, so I'm not sure I should say exactly which one. It does bear similarities to quite a few cars, plus I've tweaked the dimensions and basically guessed at the width, so I'm hoping I should be OK, and they won't try and sue me or crush it.
1958 is just before all the aero wings and stuff started coming in to F1, so shows the classic shape. This is what I've come up with (which Iím rather pleased with):
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I'm not fully set on the roll hoop, but given that it's going to be road-registered, I thought I might want some protection against being squished. The 1inch box I've used everywhere else just doesn't seem man enough against a truck wheel which is likely to be taller than my whole kart!
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The engine in the model is a very rough sketch of a Zongshen 200cc quad engine, which i think claims around 11hp and 13ft-lb, but the only reason I've used it is the upright layout of the cylinder, with the gearbox attached behind it, so it fits behind the driver, in front of the rear axle, and clears the swing arm (kinda). The front hubs and the shocks are lifted from a model of a quad-bike I found, re-scaled to the approximate size Iíll need. Again, Iím not set on these, as Iím still undecided whether I want this style of hub/knuckle/calliper-carrier (eg these from a stock-car https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/363556291264), or if Iím better off with a regular king-pin/stub-axle setup (like Gemini Karts). I think the choice of wheel may determine that, as Iím torn between 15in MX5 space-saver spare wheels (with 54.1mm hub-centric 4x100 PCD) or the standard 17in pit bike wheels (like those from Fun-bikes).
The bulk of the other bits I plan to get from a company I found on Alibaba who make kart, quad and ATV kits (at quite reasonable prices). Solid rear axle with chain, sprockets, brake disks, hubs, spindles, control arms, coils, steering rack, shaft, UJ, wheel, and possibly I may get the lights kit too. Everything in this pic is listed for £550 (inc shipping, but may need to add import tax):
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I believe whatís going to help me decide on the bits Iím unsure about, is whether or not you all think this design counts as a cycle-kart. Iíve recently re-read the ďwhat is a cycle-kartĒ page and found it specifically prohibits manual gearboxes, and shiny double-wishbones on display, but those are 2 features I really want to keep. I plan to auto-test it, and basically call it my daily driver, so I really want it to stay planted on the road, with some comfort, and be able to clutch-kick it, or hand-break turn, which doesnít work so well with a centrifugal or CVT. The design does conform to most of the other points; 2.4m overall length, 1m track width, 1.8m wheelbase, 1m tall. Iím not sure on the weight, as Iíve not done a materials list yet, and like I said, the engine is still TBD, depending on what I can find to fit for a reasonable price. If itís already a cycle-car, then Iíll just opt for the stronger hubs and wheels, but if you think this is still in the spirit of a cycle-kart, then Iíll probably go with the Gemini arms and spoked wheels.
Please let me know what you think, if you have any questions, or would like to see any other angles, measurements or close-ups of the design.
Thanks,
Konrad
« Last Edit: 18 May 22, 08:45 pm by Konrad »

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Andy_B

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Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
« Reply #1 on: 18 May 22, 07:46 pm »
Hi Konrad - Good job to date and you have some great ideas and designs there (the F1 I mean!! ;D). In short to answer your question if this will accepted generally as a 'Cyclekart' I would say most would say yes it is, but it is a bit out on the era as pre war is the cut off.
That aside the other question is will you be able to use it (for a myriad of reasons we have had long meetings about) at all the GKGB gatherings in the future? - that answer is probably not on the track and static only. There has been deep discussion into the parameters surrounding our hobby and we think we have a flexible formula to cover most of the areas, with some degree of flexibility.

I urge you to hang fire a bit longer until the new guides are put out on the forum and have a think about some of your choices.

Regarding the Chinese A-arm kits, I have experience in importing those, but your image is for the larger ones which might be too big anyway?. The basic components are ok but it is what it is and not all the bits will stand the abuse you are talking about and it will get very heavy!!!. I ended up selling them to folks who were making similar quad cycle, trikes and stuff. Also, you do need to add tax and they took 3-4 months to arrive!!

So, hopefully this is a positive for you, that you can still tweak your designs (if you want to) and hopefully the revised guides will help you and all the other builders.

Cheers
Andy


StefanN

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Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
« Reply #2 on: 18 May 22, 09:54 pm »
Hi Konrad,

Glad to hear that you're starting a build.   You'll find the updated guidelines here:  http://forum.cyclekartsgb.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=2  which are worth a read before you get too far down the road.

Looking forward to following your progress.
« Last Edit: 20 May 22, 11:50 am by StefanN »

Konrad

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Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
« Reply #3 on: 19 May 22, 05:39 pm »
Hi all, and thanks to you both for the positive comments. Andy, thanks for the info on the Chinese parts, and yes, I'm aware that pic is of the longer arm setup; the shorter armed kit isnt much different in price, and it's from the same company, but the picture isnt as nice. I'd want to fully spec out a list of parts with them anyway, so it was more just for an example. I'll certainly consider the weight, if I go down that route. I've not yet been able to find a simple answer to how much tax would be added for it... any chance you'd be able to share what you paid in the past please? I'm expecting it to be something like 20% of the pre-shipping price, which would put that kit around £590. Does that seem about right to you?

Stefan, thanks for the link, but that's the "what is a cyclekart" page I was referring to.

It would be really helpful if someone would be able to clarify which bits of the design make it inappropriate to run on the track with other CKs. I appreciate that 1958 is past the pre-war ideal, but I suspect thatís purely cosmetic, not a major issue. If I rock up in it, dressed like Sterling Moss, I dont feel it would look out of place. If I were to use the 1933 Austin special as the base, I think it would actually look even more modern, but wouldn't change the structural design.
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I was aiming for a ďvintageĒ appearance for my design, which I think Iíve managed, so I hope thatís not the main contributing factor.

The manual gearbox on the other handÖ I can see why that might be an issue, although itís also adding more weight, which might cancel out any performance advantage, it does take away the simplistic nature of a squirt-n-go kart. It could also mean that Iím able to go a bit faster than the 37mph limit. If that is the main reason, then Iím happy to accept that I wont be racing against other CKs. That could make the build process a little easier, as Iíll just build exactly what I want, instead of worrying if Iím doing something wrong, but obviously it would be nice to be able to compete against other karts. If anyone is able to suggest any other drive setup ideas which would still allow me to drift, doughnut, and hand-brake turn, while still being within the parameters of a GB CK, then Iíd be happy to try integrating that into my design.

Talking of the design, Iíve drawn it using Sketchup, which has a free viewer (for mobiles too), so let me know if youíd like to have a closer look, and I can send you a copy of the model. I find it rather satisfying to be able to spin it round and zoom in/out with my fingers. A word of caution there tho: the hours can fly by while pondering :)

Cheers,
Konrad

TheGiantTribble

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Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
« Reply #4 on: 19 May 22, 10:17 pm »
Hi Konrad.
I to love the 1950's Grand Prix cars, so I choose a 1930's that was almost a 1950's style!
However re gearbox, whilst I sit in me comfy chair and think about driving a car changing gear is an integral part of the driving experience and fun... I can honestly
say while pounding around in a CK I've never had time to worry about gears, or even felt I wish I could grab another gear at any point.
Honestly I'm too busy hanging on and smiling from ear to ear.

I will also mention even with a standard engine (well no oil sensor and a tuned exhaust, no other toys added) it has gone a smidge, nay hairs breath over the speed you are talking about! (actually a whole heap more in fact but I'll say that very quietly)  ;)

As for drifting, doughnuting, and handbrake turn

Yes almost every corner, never tried but recon on gravel not a problem (apart from anyone watching who will get showered in peddles, and I've no handbrake!
Bare in mind everything you know about cars...pretty much doesn't apply to CK's.

And if you want a go with a no frills, one wheel driver, no extra toys on the engine CK you are quite welcome to give mine a go...I dare you not to be smiling when you get out of it.
Good luck with what ever you end up building.

Konrad

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Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
« Reply #5 on: 20 May 22, 09:30 am »
Thanks Tribble, that's very kind of you to offer. I probably should try driving one before I commit.

With the standard GSX200, has anyone mounted it like this? Does it cause problems, or am I right to keep looking for a similar one that's been designed to run with the cylinder upright?

Andy_B

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Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
« Reply #6 on: 20 May 22, 10:30 am »
Regarding the taxes and shipping costs - Mate good luck with that one, since I got the parts the world has changed, all i know budget what you think and double it then anything else will be a bonus. I got clobbered for an anti dumping tax as well which is to try an operate a fair market in the uk and bring imported goods closely to the price of other uk suppliers. It is still cheaper but just beware. Some of my bits came by train apparently hence the long wait!!!

Chris Brown

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Re: Konrads 1958 F1 Daily Driver
« Reply #7 on: 20 May 22, 02:03 pm »
The GX200 has been used mounted vertically, I've attached a PDF of text I lifted from https://www.cyclekartclub.com/forum.

You might also consider the Honda GC190 6Hp engine which is a vertical OHC engine, though you would need to check it's acceptability: https://engines.honda.com/models/model-detail/gc-horizontal.

I bought a GC135 4Hp with the intention of fitting it to a rotovator, but a change in plans mean it'll probably find it's way into a cyclekart at some point.

Edit:
I'm with Bill regarding a manual gearbox, apart from it not fitting with the guidelines, there's enough to do staying on the track, and on 4 (3 in my case) wheels, without having to change gear too.
« Last Edit: 20 May 22, 03:55 pm by Chris Brown »

Konrad

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Engine Placement
« Reply #8 on: 24 May 22, 04:46 pm »
Thanks for the info guys. I've given some more careful consideration to the choice of engine over the weekend, and looked into vertical placement of the GX200. It appears the thread which Chris is referring to doesnt have much detail on what's been done to the engine to stop it having problems cooling/fueling/oiling, but the guy seems to know quite a bit about fabbing and engines, and has done other things to the engine too. I, on the other hand, dont know much about the internals, and certainly not enough to want to crack open a brand new engine before I even start my first build. Instead I looked around for other vertical options, but there really doesnt appear to be many to pick from... not sure if this is due to covid and all the projects being built, or if it's just not an efficient way round to have such a small engine. Most of what I found was either sold out, or significantly more expensive, so what I've decided to use instead is... drum roll please... A GX200!

While looking at my model, I realised I'd positioned the firewall in a pretty arbitrary location, based on the space left from fitting the Zongshen quad engine and box in order to work nicely with the jack-shaft location. Iíd also envisaged having the space behind the seat for storage.
So I took out the firewall, and found the gx200 appears to fit nicely in its normal horizontal orientation. I've taken out the gear selector and linkage, moved the hand-break slightly, and drawn up a new engine cradle. I still need to draw out the Comet TAV, but it's looking pretty good, and looks like it might get better clearance for the rear swing arm, which should help it sit higher in the body (so less visible).
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It sits around 40mm off-center, but given that it only weighs 16kg, I dont think thatís much of a problem. This orientation and position will lower the CofG and vertical rotational inertia, so it should handle better. It should also allow the fuel tank to sit to the left of the engine, instead of over the rear, so the IVA man will be happier with the lower risk of dripping fuel over the exhaust. This helps lower the CofG even more, and should help offset the weight of the engine being off-center. My flask of tea and my sandwiches should get plenty of space at the top of the engine bay, and may even have room to stow my helmet in there too!

With regards to the engine, Iíve looked at a few of the GX200 clones/replacements, and my favourite is probably the LiFan HP212E.
Similar to a Predator 212, this looks to have 212ccís, 10bhp, 10ft/lb of torque (7.5kw, 13.5nm), electric start, and Iíve found it for £295 (incl VAT and shipping). What do we think of this engine, does it fit the CK ethos?
My 2nd choice is a Hyundai IC210XE, which is 212ccís again, but only 6.5bhp. Again itís electric start, and Iíve found it for £260 (also incl VAT and shipping). The max RPM is 3600, vs 5800 for the LiFan, so it might sound a little less interesting (and I cant see the torque specs for a direct comparison), but seems like a good choice if the LiFan is a no-go.
Any thoughts welcome.
Thanks,
Konrad