Author Topic: Auto Union type C The difficult second CycleKart  (Read 7411 times)

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 1077
  • Location: Cumbria
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
    CKGB Committee
Auto Union type C The difficult second CycleKart
« on: 30 Jul 23, 08:31 am »
Ever since I got half way through the build of the BSA, I knew I would build another - I was having too much fun with the first one. Looking at past build journals and the American sites, I knew it was not going to be easy. I would want to build upon my mistakes and attempt something very different at the same time.
I have been collecting bits and messing around with ideas for about ten months now but it was not until an idea for front suspension based upon a 1930's Porsche design was mooted (Hat tip to Giant Tribble) that I got my dander up as to what to build. The build will employ little of my traditional wood based skill set (big challenge and lots to learn). I set about trying to replicate the suspension design and I now have 80% faith that I can do it. Good enough to make a start.
A couple of rough sketches and a video to show how I intend to tackle the problem. Not a definitive design yet and very much work in progress.
If you are reading Stefan, please reserve me race number 6.

JimR
« Last Edit: 02 Feb 25, 10:53 am by Jimr1999 »
... You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead. Stan Laurel

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook


  • Forum user
  • Posts: 556
  • Location: Huntingdon
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
    CKGB Committee
Good luck with the build Jim. You learn so much from your first build which is a great help when doing another.

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 508
  • Location: Dorset
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
Good luck very interesting build. Does the type A have 4 back wheels?
Cheers Nick

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 1077
  • Location: Cumbria
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
    CKGB Committee
Not this one Nick, it was run with four total. It is the first iteration of A,B,C and D and had scoops rather than louvres...
Nachbau - 1998 4.358 cc V16 295 HP 280 km/h Zoute Grand Prix 2015 Knokke - Belgium Oktober 2015
Flickr · flickr.com

« Last Edit: 30 Jul 23, 09:32 am by Jimr1999 »
... You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead. Stan Laurel

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 1077
  • Location: Cumbria
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
    CKGB Committee
General layout...
... You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead. Stan Laurel

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 4
  • Location: Oxon
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
Good to meet you at Newark, Jim.
You have just solved the front suspension quandary I had about my inspiration car.
The twin trailing arms are reminiscent of my TVR Grantura which used early VW Beetle suspensin with a sheaf of torsion bars anchored in the centre of a tube. The arms themselves were supported in fibre bushes.
The MX-5 ARBs with bump stops look like a goer to me.

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 1077
  • Location: Cumbria
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
    CKGB Committee
Good to meet you at Newark, Jim.
You have just solved the front suspension quandary I had about my inspiration car.
The twin trailing arms are reminiscent of my TVR Grantura which used early VW Beetle suspensin with a sheaf of torsion bars anchored in the centre of a tube. The arms themselves were supported in fibre bushes.
The MX-5 ARBs with bump stops look like a goer to me.

Thanks Ian, good to meet you too. As far as I am aware, it was a Porsche design and probably started life on the Auto Union type A. Here is a reasonable image of the type D suspension, I think little changed from the type A, it had friction dampers on the top arms... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Auto_Union_Typ_D_Detail_Radaufh%C3%A4ngung_EMS.jpg
JimR
... You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead. Stan Laurel

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 1284
  • Location: Tamworth
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
As an option for the trailing arms have you had a look at bicycle pedal cranks, and using the long socket extension bars for the torsion bars?
In regard design, the Auto Union was a Porsche design as above.
We must avoid torturing our brains with false problems, it occupies but it can annoy. In jest!

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 1077
  • Location: Cumbria
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
    CKGB Committee
As an option for the trailing arms have you had a look at bicycle pedal cranks, and using the long socket extension bars for the torsion bars?
In regard design, the Auto Union was a Porsche design as above.
I have yet to see it done that way Rhys, my issue with that idea, which was first mooted by the Giant Tribble in a design he produced as a concept, was the clearance for the turn of the wheels - bicycle cranks would not have given me much lock to interference without a lot of projection on the ball joints, which are probably the weak point of the design. I looked at torsion bar inclusion first, As that would have been authentic - I talked to Rick Eggers in the states as he has a great design but not transverse, in line, and he had to machine his socket extensions down to get the spring rate correct.  - the MX5 bars are too stiff in their own right at 18mm (Although 5### series spring steel) - As the width of the CK limits the effective length of the torsion bar, including a link to another torsion bar seemed unnecessarily complicated/heavy/space consuming/inauthentic when rubber would do the trick (think Mini mk1?).
 All very experimental Rhys at the moment and without trying I will never know if it will work. The plan is to get the front end welded up and braced first to test the deflection, bounce, rebound and the necessity for dampers before going ahead with the rest of the work. Things are busy here at the hacienda so it will probably be September before I know how well it performs.
JimR
« Last Edit: 10 Aug 23, 08:36 am by Jimr1999 »
... You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead. Stan Laurel

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 303
  • I build things and make alot of noise
  • Location: EG, west sussex
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
Yay, rubber cones! My Riley has a rear suspension system based on them, too. Works a treat.

The rear end is balanced between two sets of cones pressing up on the bottom, with slightly different hardness on each pair to provide rebound control and damping, and lots of rubber bands pulling down from the top doing the actual suspension part of the job.

Ive had it off-road a couple times, works surprisingly well over a rough field.

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 1077
  • Location: Cumbria
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
    CKGB Committee
Incomplete as yet but progress has been made on the front suspension. A bit of welding to do, some clamps to fit and the rebound bands to sort out. See the video...
... You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead. Stan Laurel

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 116
  • Location: Surrey
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
Looking good Jim. 👍

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 556
  • Location: Huntingdon
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
    CKGB Committee
Really coming together now, good progress 🤗

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 508
  • Location: Dorset
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
Very nice Jim

  • Forum user
  • Posts: 1077
  • Location: Cumbria
    • View Profile

  • Badges: (View All)
    CKGB Committee
Rebound bands and bobbins fit, mount re tack welded
... You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead. Stan Laurel